Island Defense
June 19, 2019, 10:49:35 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: not so new version:  3.0.6G4, 3.0.8d
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: What suggestions does ID need? Builders edition.  (Read 7057 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Eji1700
Spearloc
***

Karma: +5/-10
Posts: 285


« on: February 14, 2009, 05:39:34 AM »

Disclaimers:
1.Beginning = rundown.  Green = point of article.
2. As of writing, this is all my own personal thought.  I am making no claims that following anything I say in here is more likely to get darox to implement your idea or that i'm not completely fucking wrong.

It's pretty much certain that when Starcraft 2 hits ID(at least under darox) is done(barring starcraft 2 turning out to be complete shit).  With that in mind, depending on how much work and how many more versions darox feels inclined to put out we're probably not going to see massive overhauls of the map.  That said most of us love new builders and titans and hence we have many suggestions for them.  However a problem that I've seen when looking through outside of balance and theme issues is playstyle.  To go in further I've categorized the builders for now and will do the titans(more important part) later.

Definitions-

Offense: Attack the titan away from a base. 
Defense: Fortifying an area of the map and holding out against the titan.
Support: Walling, assisting, being a symbiotic parasite for a successful Offensive or Defensive player.
Builder Categories/playstyles-
Offensive:Use of builder to harm the titan in an offense like manner. Must be in significant quantities.  I don't care if a makura can titan hunt with a hunter
Defensive:Use of builder to harm the titan in a defense like manner.  Can basically substitute this word for baser and vice versa. Must be in significant quantities.  I don't care if a sat can spend 9k in gold to make a fully functional base populated by spear throwers.
Support: Use of builder to assist other players in harming the titan.  Needs to be significant or easier than an average race.  Everyone can wall for others.  Demon and mag however can wall for others much much easier than radio and provide more.
Army: Use of multiple non builder units to do any of the above 3(currently all army races are offensive).
Hybrid: combination of any of the above.

The list:
Easy:4 basers.
Murloc:Defensive
Makura:Defensive
Gnoll:Defensive
Troll:Defensive
Medium: 2 basers.  2 baser hybrids. 1 offensive hybrid.
Radio:Defensive
Ogre:Defensive
Morph:Defensive/offensive/support hybrid
Dranei:Defensive/army hybrid
Tauren:Defnsive/Offensive hybrid
Hard: 1 baser. 2 support hybrids. 2 army hybrids. 1 Offensive
Faire:Defensive/Support hybrid
Gob:Defensive.
Nat:Defensive/Support/Army hybrid
Demon:Support/Army hybrid
Mag: Support/Offensive hybrid
Sat: Offensive/Army hybrid (special note: i barely consider him even army.  Sat's an odd case but 90% of the time he's played solo with the summons being totally ignored.  However i can't deny that he has more army potential than a murloc with stones.)

By Playstyle:
Offensive:7
Sat
Mag
Demon
Nat
Tauren
Dranei
Morph

Defensive:12
Murloc
Makura
Gnoll
Troll
Radio
Ogre
Morph
Dranei
Tauren
Farie
Gob

Support:4

Mag
Nat
Farie
Morph

Army:4
Dranei
Sat
Nat
Demon


What the hell this means:
Its hard to pull useful data from those lists so i'm going to summarize my points here.

What do we need:
Defensive:

Do we have too many?  Not really no.  We have 1 hard baser and that's gob.  Although looked at from another direction you might say it's tauren.  Either way it's something that's underrepresented.  Basing can be or is an afterthought starting at the medium level and with only 1 hard baser i think it's something we could use more of.  My personal idea was to make a parasite based builder who would be forced to early base in a sense and be almost totally unable to pop a base up as fast as other races.  A unique hunter system would keep him interesting, but limit his offensive capabilites.  Haven't bothered fleshing it out because the things a triggering nightmare from hell and I don't want Darox plotting to kill me(aka i don't think he'd consider it).  Still it's an unfilled void. 
That said Medium and easy basers are pretty well represented, and more ideas along those lines seem less likely to be needed((yes even your farmer zen).  However truly unique gameplay gimmicks can help here.

Offensive:
Do we have too many?  In a way, yes.  It's hard to do unique or pure offense.  Satyr is the only race that comes close to basically having no other option than bitchslap the titan solo, but so many other races have offensive options that it's hard to come up with unique stuff.  This category is pretty well represented so it's going to have to have a very unique gimmick for it to stick out.  Puppeteer could fall under this depending on how it winds up, but there are probably other idea's out there.

Support:
Do we have too many?  Pretty much no.  Again everyone can wall but so few races are really dedicated to just helping others thrive that there's a lot of creative wiggle room in here.  A caster based builder who's job it is to buff builders and debuff titan to assist could be interesting.  However support builders are going to be hard to balance.  Someone who can turn any base on the map he reaches into a post penalty base despite it being built by the most mentally deficient noob is going to be a pain to account for.  Single tower buffs and abilities that assist builders/hinder titan would be key.  Think farie sans basing.

Army:
Do we have too many?  No.  However the issue with armies is how to do them.  More offensive armies is a little redundant, but could be done.  Large armies that require more synergy(nat's lol venos/spears approach is effective, but linear) is a path that could be more explored or mass weaklings.  However the idea of defensive and support armies gets difficult.  Army got it's own category because it can already do both to some extent, but it could be more focused.  Think ogre if he played as he's supposed to.  Perhaps some race that can uproot from a base and quickly move to another after a mini death, or in general has smaller DPS bases, but can get in position near titan.  However that's a tricky idea to make useful and a support army is even stranger.  Still however those may be paths worth exploring.

Other?:
Other gameplay styles may be possible if you're creative. Perhaps a hero who literally never builds and only levels up while using gold and lumber to cast?  I dunno.  Be creative.

What we don't need:

Omni builders: Nat harvesting, armies, no gold reliance, awesome high damage multi target bases, can level up, unique walls, and 3 gameplay styles that have never been seen before!  Seriously.  Pick some specialties.  Nat and morph cover the multi role stuff pretty damn well already and much more is absurd.

UBER 133t PLAYERS ONLY!: Difficulty is probably the hardest thing to get right.  Sat has been a pain ever since implemented because the idea of an extraordinarily hard builder with payoff is one that doesn't work well in a game that requires 11 people on the same team.  Builders who are difficult are good ideas but if you think it should be limited you've made it too hard.

Triggering Nightmares: if every single unit, spell, effect, escape, and building requires 240 lines of code you probably overdid it.  If i had to bet I'd say Darox has some form of life outside of ID so things that require insane amounts of time are probably screwed no matter how good they seem.

Complete game changers:
While new ideas and playstyles might be welcomed there are things that would just change ID drastically.  A builder who could destroy trees for example would almost certainly be overlooked.  A neat idea, and maybe a cool way to escape, but would completely screw the balance and is something you can't plan for.  Also builders who could either delevel the titan or destroy his items would almost certainly be out.

Frail to godly: Many builders gain power over time.  That's to be expected and is really the purpose of the game.  However it needs to be within reason.  A builder who starts with one leg and moves at 23 ms with one map wide blink that coolsdown every five minutes is going to suck to play as.  He's still going to suck if you  make it so that when he gets 4394 gold he gets a spell that immediately blows up the titan.  Spells, units, and towers that deal angel arena like damage are never ever going to be balanced or fun.  They'll probably cost so much you'll almost never see them and even then insta doom at X gold and Y lumber just isn't fun.

Random builders: Totally random abilities or skills with no clear theme or playstyle.  Again try to have the role you want to fill with the builder thought up first.  Either fill an empty/underrepresented role or find a very unique playstyle to fill a current one.

More of the same:  We really don't need another easy baser.  We have 4 and a ton of other races that can base in a standard way.  If it's not jaw dropping creative it's probably not going to be noticed.

One trick ponys: You thought of a really sweet awesome idea for a builder so you copy pasted EVERYTHING about murloc and added it in as a research.  No.  If you have a cool idea that's great.  Build something around it, don't just make yet another baser who has a few special upgrades.

On gold and hunters:[/u]
I didn't bother mentioning it but if your builder is dependent on gold or if it has a hunter are two very defining characteristics.  Think very carefully on how you want to do this because we already have a shit ton of hunterless golders.  In general many use gold as a crutch to make their builder harder, but if you're creative there are other ways to introduce difficulty without making it so you sit in a corner and whack trees until the penalty if too many noobs die.

In short:
Branch out when making suggestions.  Think about theme's/playstyles/difficulties/categories/upsides/downsides. I don't care if your idea is broken as hell because it's got 888 damage towers.  That can be fixed.  I care if its another mix and match of your personal favorite playstles/gimmicks from already implemented builders with added junk to make him even more broken.


Edit: Cut it down and basically just removed explanations.  I'll defend it in topic if need be.  Added some more stuff to the Don't need list.  Also Zen, i fucking hate your laptop.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 02:43:19 AM by Eji1700 » Logged
Red
Titanious Minion
*****

Karma: +41/-39
Posts: 603


I <3 Makrura


« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2009, 06:41:39 AM »

After a bit i stopped reading, but thanks for not being a nub who spams shit with no reason. I thought most of what you said had logic.
Logged


So the truthfully face of -red is being a retard bitching people?
Eji1700
Spearloc
***

Karma: +5/-10
Posts: 285


« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 02:07:03 AM »

Meh i'm considering butchering half of it.  I realized much later that the audience this is intended for probably doesn't really have the attention span required to get through even the highlighted parts.  This is what endless semesters of term paper writing does to your posting people.
Logged
Sipondo
Speedy Turtle
**

Karma: +4/-7
Posts: 128


Master of Demonology, Creator of the Labyrinth


WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2009, 02:54:36 AM »

Quote
Do we have too many?  Not really no.  We have 1 hard baser and that's gob.

'Faerie'Huh?...
Logged

Eji1700
Spearloc
***

Karma: +5/-10
Posts: 285


« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 03:10:13 AM »

Quote
Do we have too many?  Not really no.  We have 1 hard baser and that's gob.

'Faerie'Huh?...
Faerie qualifies as support too.  It's very possible to just gold up and never base. Get a hunter and grab your reaserches and wander giving support from base to base.  The hunter is an awesome ward sniper and combined the spell harass the two put out is sick.


Gob has a hunter and gob trap.  Other than that he's got the usual list of adv traning and super towers.  Can he support?  Sure.  Would I say it's a normal or standard option, probably not.
Logged
rage_no
Spearloc
***

Karma: +7/-8
Posts: 173

Crab, Infernal, and Pitlord. There I named 3


« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2009, 10:13:40 PM »

parasite based builder who would be forced to early base in a sense and be almost totally unable to pop a base up as fast as other races.
Basically, if the builder's base succeeds, everyone would be inside there waiting till gp and that ruins the game.
Logged

*scream* what's that on your neck!?!?!??!!?!??!
oh wait, its your face...


You know what to do. Don't be lazy. Comon. DO IT NOW!
Eji1700
Spearloc
***

Karma: +5/-10
Posts: 285


« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 02:07:06 AM »

parasite based builder who would be forced to early base in a sense and be almost totally unable to pop a base up as fast as other races.
Basically, if the builder's base succeeds, everyone would be inside there waiting till gp and that ruins the game.
No.  In the suggestion I thought of the towers would be very strong for basic towers, a bit more strong than the average upgraded tower, and at super level and beyond they would actually be much much weaker than average either through manipulation of damage, range, attackspeed or some combination thereof.  Add to the fact that towers were to have a decaying and unrestorable mana pool.  When depelted the tower would be destroyed.  the only way to stop this is to upgrade the tower, but the towers would be very resource inefficient encouraging an early base but a long stay as useless.  Essentially several other designs meant that the standard game for the builder would probably begin with an early base, a mid game of golding thanks to various skills gained through tower level based research, and end with no base whatsoever(which denies itself in a sense) and only able to support other bases with the builder losing it's ability to build towers completely by end game.

I've got multiple seperate systems incorporated into that idea that could be taken out and reworked into any idea which would want to encourage early basing without breaking the game.  People need to just be more creative and not think, no offense, like you did with "good early basing = gg". 
Logged
Syaorann
Spearloc
***

Karma: +7/-22
Posts: 304


Mikazuki is fat


« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 02:30:00 AM »

You lie.

Ogre is not defensive.
Logged

Eji1700
Spearloc
***

Karma: +5/-10
Posts: 285


« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 02:44:03 AM »

You lie.

Ogre is not defensive.
Shadow dancer doesn't count and if you're serious I'd love to see a good replay proving me wrong.

That said a big edit.
Logged
Lord_Kamakazie
TOWER CONTRACTER
Titan Hunter
****

Karma: +10/-7
Posts: 476


Life in 360 Degrees


« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 06:19:37 AM »

IMO Island Defense needs more basic builders...
Logged

you can rape the world and be creative now
JayceJa
Spearloc
***

Karma: +15/-15
Posts: 335


An abrasive personality


« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 03:59:33 AM »

IMO Island Defense needs more basic builders...
hear hear, the game needs more basic builders, more specifically absolutely non gold dependent builders, heck even a fully wood dependent supporter would be nice(though itd be a real bitch to balance)
Logged

jadegolem
Titan Hunter
****

Karma: +11/-41
Posts: 383


I Rock, Literally


« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 09:50:37 AM »

Ogre is army -_- WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T YOU MAKE HIM ARMY???!!! Ogre is an army/support/baser because he can fart and run away =3...
Logged
Eji1700
Spearloc
***

Karma: +5/-10
Posts: 285


« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2009, 03:58:06 AM »

On more basic builders:  I suppose that's so.  However in general when i hear basic builder I think stuff like murloc.  You lumber base.  You base.  And if you can you gold.  When a minion dies you hide in your base until the titan comes/game ends.  Not how the best always play him, but pretty damn true for 90% of the player base(granted a large % of that is pick murloc, ask how to gold, die in a corner massing fruit trees.)
I really think that outside of the beginner races, builders should be designed so a player usually has something to do.

On orge: I've never ever played a game that featured a good ogre who was offensive or army like in any way shape or form.  From all of my experience the individual building and placing of catapults is nothing more than a tower gimmick like morph workers.  If i am wrong and they can be adequately used I would LOVE to see a replay of it happening against a semi competent titan, or be directed to one.  Also fart and run IS NOT SUPPORT.  It's helping.  It's nice.  It does not make ogre a support race.  I have never thought to myself, "Awesome, I've got a decent ogre in my base.  That makes it even harder to break!"  Plain and simple farting is nice, it helps, and is something that is so rare its mostly a party trick.  It is not full on support.

On sticky: Hey cool sticky. I wondered where the topic went. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 04:00:26 AM by Eji1700 » Logged
EmoSkittles
Spearloc
***

Karma: +34/-14
Posts: 170


Woop Woop!


« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 11:06:44 PM »

IMO Island Defense needs more basic builders...


True say.
Logged

What Money?
Impressionnant
Worker


Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 13


« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2009, 12:13:30 AM »

So I read this and it inspired me haha.
I came up with a couple ideas that I'll be posting up here within the next few days; assuming my science fair project doesn't take a hell of a lot longer than I'd assumed it would.
Logged
Valor Forgotten
Murloc
*

Karma: +3/-3
Posts: 94


Time, The endless Guardian who has been Forgotten


« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2009, 03:22:07 PM »

Very Informative! I read it all and it makes much sense going to do some stuff now  Grin
Logged

killadev
Titan Hunter
****

Karma: +12/-54
Posts: 411



« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2009, 06:47:10 PM »

I along with many others think some changes need to be made with sat.  Like with more hp the less gold and lumber you get for poking?  With an unlimited amount of sats being able to be picked maybe should either go back to one sat with the -sat (color) command or lessen the gold for killing one
Logged

Host: DLer please name builders
DLer: Tree thing thing, Naga, Fire, Water, Peasant, Peon, Whisp.
Darox
Controversial!
Administrator
Get a life
*****

Karma: +92/-51
Posts: 9001



« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2009, 01:05:12 AM »

with more hp the less gold you get for poking?

This already happens.
Logged

Quote from: BodyHammer
I HATE ALL MINORITIES.  WHITE POWER.  I ALSO BEAT WOMEN.
Yesterday my girlfriend pissed me off so I punched her.  Why did she piss me off so much?  She got snippy and was all like "You're a pedophile" so I got pissed and was like "Bitch, don't call me that, and how the hell do you even know that word?  You're only 8."

P.S.  Darox rocks.
islandDer
Titan Hunter
****

Karma: +8/-24
Posts: 415


^He can believe it's not butter


« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2009, 09:02:05 PM »

That's not cool -.-
Logged

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!