Buff the new titan.... A LOT

[Ryld]

I tried playing the new titan of malady the other day in a pub. Big mistake... I like the idea of the titan's ww that is pretty clever however a lot of the other stuff for the titan needs a lot of work/buffs.
Foremost among the changes necessary are the need for a heal!!! I understand the titan is built around hunting down builders but his sieging is extremely bad. As a level 9, eventually level 11 titan with helm of dominator and life essence plus passing titanic wards I couldn't get more than 3 walls in vs. a pirate base which was walled wrong.. The mana shield needs to cost much less mana and deplete less or the titan needs to be given a much larger mana pool/better mana regen. I'm gonna try and play him again and add some more suggestions to this topic after I lose again

[Coaster_Man]

I agree, but if you think of it this way: The titans mana shield at level 4 does 4 damage per point of mana. Comparing it to molt's, which is 250 for 950, the new titan's heal actually does more, at 250 mana spent for 1000 damage (health). Also, there is no cd, since you can have it on as long as your mana is. Only problem is that you can't use wards effectively, and you can't use any regeneration (health) item effectively. I was sort of lost on how to play her, so I went life ess for mana regen, wards, feet, armor of fate, then rest magic coral. But she still seems to get owned right when her mana is gone.

I vote mana ward.

Oh, and make the nuke range a bit longer, like 600? In some areas I can only get like 2 workers (where with demo you can get more? or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about)

The windwalk is good, but after a few games players understand what it is and the wont gold until they see you for real (damaging something). But nonetheless it was fun to trick people the first time. Oh and sonic receivers are good.

[Neco]

Yeah, the lack of a proper heal is a strange concept to try and balance... I think most people see their health going down slowly and don't realise that they are being "healed" at the same time. Once that mana is gone, you really go down fast.

The nuke range at the moment is 550, which I think is the same as Demonicus (or 50 less, I'll have to check).

I really like the titan idea though, the idea of being able to completely mindfuck the builders is an interesting concept.

[Smygarn]

Its not that Audascious is bad in any form of balance. Its rather that being the first Intellect Titan, there is no effective build for her.
The game needs items that provide mana and int oriented items, as there is hardly any items of the sort.
So what the game needs is not tweaking Audascious to fit a system not yet adapted for her, but more items.

In that respect, there is now tons of room for new items.
Mana wards, Intellect items, ability items, anything.

Mana Wards are a given, intellect items can be made up like Circlets and Bracers.
(Could you imagine how any other titan would manage if they only had to pick from an item list that wasnt suited for them?)

[MuDDy_PaNDa]

Its not that Audascious is bad in any form of balance. Its rather that being the first Intellect Titan, there is no effective build for her.
The game needs items that provide mana and int oriented items, as there is hardly any items of the sort.
So what the game needs is not tweaking Audascious to fit a system not yet adapted for her, but more items.

In that respect, there is now tons of room for new items.
Mana wards, Intellect items, ability items, anything.

Mana Wards are a given, intellect items can be made up like Circlets and Bracers.
(Could you imagine how any other titan would manage if they only had to pick from an item list that wasnt suited for them?)

completely agree with this.

[Neco]

It is hard to balance, mostly because people's perceptions are different from other titans. You don't see your health low and go "oh no, I must heal". Instead, you must regard your health as the only health you have, since you are constantly being "healed".

Mana wards and the such have the capability to break the game, since we get the Foss Cocoon problem all over again. The only thing stopping titans from sieging a base 24/7 is their need for mass mana regen, which the mound provides. Start giving people mana wards and bases will fall with ease without any chance to replenish.

[Ryld]

It is hard to balance, mostly because people's perceptions are different from other titans. You don't see your health low and go "oh no, I must heal". Instead, you must regard your health as the only health you have, since you are constantly being "healed".

Mana wards and the such have the capability to break the game, since we get the Foss Cocoon problem all over again. The only thing stopping titans from sieging a base 24/7 is their need for mass mana regen, which the mound provides. Start giving people mana wards and bases will fall with ease without any chance to replenish.

Yes good point. I like the idea of the titan for sure, it will just need balancing. Mana wards maybe, if they work like eternal wards so that they are unpassable. If they could be passed like titanic wards it would be hella imba. @ coaster: You're right about the players catching on quickly but the windwalk is also very useful for sieging as you can use it as a very strong tank

[Coaster_Man]

@Ry1d Against new players who dont know how to focus, sure.

Also mana wards that are not passable seem fine to me, if need be increase cd but it is already around a minute, seems fine. (for healing ones)

[ArtFuL]

triends just for mana?
+8int and titanic triend +18 (or w/e)int and provides 10% more mana reg or so..

[Smygarn]

Ry1D. Who is saying you have to come out of windwalk when first starting to attack? You can be creative and exit windwalk right as you activate it and then attack a base. Half of the time theoretically, the players wont know which one to attack since you can activate the shield when the real titan is exposed.

If you make her attack out of windwalk, then its up to the player to focus fire the one that appeared next to the wall. Otherwise if you do as I mentioned above, simply wait until the illusion dies and then activate shield. You'll get that much deeper purely on gambling. x)

Mana wards are a welcome item in the game, its the numbers that will determine whether its op or not.

[VAMPSI]

new titan is epic, for him to work better he needs the mana wards or an item that boosts inteligence.
His nuke and ww are epic, didnt test the ult yet tho..

^mana ward icon?

[Neco]

Mana wards and the such have the capability to break the game, since we get the Foss Cocoon problem all over again. The only thing stopping titans from sieging a base 24/7 is their need for mass mana regen, which the mound provides. Start giving people mana wards and bases will fall with ease without any chance to replenish.

I don't think you people understand how much they would break the game.

[Ryld]

quote self ftw. That is why we are discussing cool downs and passing or alternative items because we realize how powerful they could be

[MuDDy_PaNDa]

Mana wards and the such have the capability to break the game, since we get the Foss Cocoon problem all over again. The only thing stopping titans from sieging a base 24/7 is their need for mass mana regen, which the mound provides. Start giving people mana wards and bases will fall with ease without any chance to replenish.

I don't think you people understand how much they would break the game.

only some idiots do not.

[Smygarn]

To make an item work you will need to understand how it will affect the game, and how Titans generally prioritize.
Mana wards as Neco is saying will allow Titans to maintain a siege longer because of the mana they can replenish that much easier.
Besides, there is already such an item in the game... Replenish Pots. Although they cost 4/8 gold, they can be used to restore large amounts of mana, and works even in ww after they leave the area of effect upon using it.

To me, they are an underestimated item that even I dont find much use for in most games. Why could that be? Why are these potions rarely seen to be used in Island Defense unless they come along for free drops?
Because they cost gold each time otherwise.
You have to spend gold each time you decide to use these potions and since all titans are very conservative about their gold, potions are not used very much. Ever since I began playing ID, potions have only been used if they came along as drops. Not one titan has actively used these potions to break a base that he would have been able to with one, ?he prefers saving the gold for lategame items.

So why not follow that notion? Give the game mana wards, the Titans still wont use them often enough to call it gamebreaking. More like the strategic and situational usage 'Mana Ward haters' would want to see. And besides, if you see Titans starting to use the Mana wards alot, you can atleast know he's spending gold on it, and isnt very wise in doing it either since he has those frigging pots if he wants to use a situational attack pattern.

I say + to the Mana wards, but provide no eternal set combo.
And Muddy, care to tell me why these mana wards would be overpowered or gamebreaking? Im not satisfied to hear the words of it alone, let me hear some explanation.

[MuDDy_PaNDa]

To make an item work you will need to understand how it will affect the game, and how Titans generally prioritize.
Mana wards as Neco is saying will allow Titans to maintain a siege longer because of the mana they can replenish that much easier.
Besides, there is already such an item in the game... Replenish Pots. Although they cost 4/8 gold, they can be used to restore large amounts of mana, and works even in ww after they leave the area of effect upon using it.

To me, they are an underestimated item that even I dont find much use for in most games. Why could that be? Why are these potions rarely seen to be used in Island Defense unless they come along for free drops?
Because they cost gold each time otherwise.
You have to spend gold each time you decide to use these potions and since all titans are very conservative about their gold, potions are not used very much. Ever since I began playing ID, potions have only been used if they came along as drops. Not one titan has actively used these potions to break a base that he would have been able to with one, ?he prefers saving the gold for lategame items.

So why not follow that notion? Give the game mana wards, the Titans still wont use them often enough to call it gamebreaking. More like the strategic and situational usage 'Mana Ward haters' would want to see. And besides, if you see Titans starting to use the Mana wards alot, you can atleast know he's spending gold on it, and isnt very wise in doing it either since he has those frigging pots if he wants to use a situational attack pattern.

I say + to the Mana wards, but provide no eternal set combo.
And Muddy, care to tell me why these mana wards would be overpowered or gamebreaking? Im not satisfied to hear the words of it alone, let me hear some explanation.

the only thing that was making a titan not able to continously siege a base was the mana, give him the ability to have unlimited mana/replenish most, and you can siege forever, making a builder have no wood for making walls and upgrading them while making towers.

[PoNy]

Ok this is what I hear so far

Mana wards will have no perma version like Healing does

To use mana wards you will need to buy them time and time again

But healing pots already heal mana but are dispelled when hit, which is why it is balanced

Possible argument for manawards is that you can't dispel it without breaking it and it also regenerates minions mana as well which also allows them to heal and or nuke bounce

Potion recovers one while the ward keeps the whole minion army up so there isn't as much bad micro mistakes

Since the ward will have to be bought over and over it will be easy to stack them on multiple minions and if this is a misc use then this will also drop

Mana wards are not needed, end of story.

[MuDDy_PaNDa]

Ok this is what I hear so far

Mana wards will have no perma version like Healing does

To use mana wards you will need to buy them time and time again

But healing pots already heal mana but are dispelled when hit, which is why it is balanced

Possible argument for manawards is that you can't dispel it without breaking it and it also regenerates minions mana as well which also allows them to heal and or nuke bounce

Potion recovers one while the ward keeps the whole minion army up so there isn't as much bad micro mistakes

Since the ward will have to be bought over and over it will be easy to stack them on multiple minions and if this is a misc use then this will also drop

Mana wards are not needed, end of story.

vouch.

[Striker]

Ok, so I havn't tried the new titan, but mana wards just don't work. Make something work around the minions (spell oriented). If you really wanted an item, you could make mana wards hero specific so only that titan/minions would be able to pick up.
 
@ Smy - replenish pots really don't work well because there isn't any titan that can put them to good use to argue their value. Early game you don't need them because well, you aren't sieging. Lategame wards do the same but are permanent, not to mention they last while sieging. Replenish pots are basically only used if you find one, pick one up and use during WW.

[PoNy]

Greater replen pot is the only viable option

[Smygarn]

Im not necessarily bent on seeing mana wards in the game, its for the sake of argument because im curious just where they will take off as being overpowered. For the sake of argument, I've been looking for the fine balance that would keep them situationally equal with replenish potions.

Potions are already the variation of mana ward in the game, and a really underestimated one at that. All you have to worry about is not taking damage and you will regain thousands of hit points and mana over time to use directly in an ongoing assault even.

Smy - replenish pots really don't work well because there isn't any titan that can put them to good use to argue their value. Early game you don't need them because well, you aren't sieging. Lategame wards do the same but are permanent, not to mention they last while sieging. Replenish pots are basically only used if you find one, pick one up and use during WW.
You have got to be kidding me. While potions are indeed situational due to their costs, under just what idea are you to say they wont work in a siege regardless of level or point of game? If a lone builder tries to early base and you needed that one extra push, potions can provide it much better than an early ward ever will. Not only will there not be any real anti-stealth at that point, you also gain mana from it unlike the health ward alternative. All thats to worry about is not taking a hit like mentioned and you are off for a good two in one attack on a base. Many of the times I've used these potions, they have helped me breach through the last couple of walls preventing me from breaking a base.

And just as I have said before, Potions are not used a lot simply because they cost gold repeatedly. At the points before lategame where they would be useful and disregarding that, Titans will often overlook them because at these points they are much more concerned with accumulating and saving gold for lategame items.



Im putting up arguments to find out where the Wards would take off to becoming unbalanced, because the opinions against them are simply just calling it gamebreaking. Be it stupid or even retarded, im putting up arguments because im not actually against mana wards as an item, because they can always be balanced.
Just for the sake of argument: If you were to try and balance something that's being called gamebreaking, what would you do?

[PoNy]

If mana wards were ever put in here are some possible outcomes

1) They are completely underpowered and can't regen fast enough so people continue to invest in magic coral and into life Es

2) They are overpowered as fuck and heal minions are the new rage, heal spamming minions are in every game and nothing can stop their infinite mana

3) The wards are decent but can't compare to pot, and slowly pot becomes popular while mana wards are the new scroll of beasts in pub games

4) Wasn't put in

[Neco]

The only reason (for me) that replenishment potions are not used is because they take up inventory space.

Ew.

I want to stack mah tridents and be da best titan in da worldz!



This, I think, is the primary reason why they (mana pots) are not used. The solution to this problem? Mana wards. They can be put a minion therefore freeing up the titan to rape bases and pillage builders. The only problem is the minions themselves, since they too gain mana regeneration from these wards. Usually sieging revolves around the titan sieging a base, running out of mana (or health, but then you can heal) and returning to his mound to regenerate. The minions stay and try to keep the base from being reconstructed. This however, also drains their mana, so they have to return to the mound at some point if they want to intimidate the builders into not reconstructing their defenses. The addition of wards would break this cycle, allowing the Titan and his minions to stay at the base entrance while regenerating health and mana (healing abilities and the odd eternal ward) and stopping walls being rebuilt.

All it takes is a lone minion (I'd assume you'd have a few by now, since this is late game we are talking about) to go back to the mound and pick up a ward or two then return while the others keep the builders at bay.

Do you now get why they'd be game breaking? Having a high cost would just be pointless, a low regeneration amount equally so. The current system works now anyway, so we don't really have to mind about that.

What do we have to mind about? The name of the thread title says it all: Audascious. She's got a new gameplay style (ok, kind of new... "Newish" we'll say) which focuses on mana and intellect (she actually doesn't, but we'll get to that). The problem in this thread is that she runs out of mana so damn fast and then is completely useless. Whose fault is this? Is it that there are no intellect items in the game? No.
Just like any other titan, she needs to primarily focus on dealing damage or taking less of it. Intellect does not currently help her deal damage at all, so she's actually dependent on the items currently in stock just like any other titan. The real problem occurs if you chose to go the "taking less of it" path, since she absorbs damage instead of regaining it at certain points. She does so through giving up mana, so a bigger mana pool is better, right? Wrong. She depends on mana the exact same amount as other titans do, she just takes it bit by bit instead of using a large amount for a large heal. Each time she's hit, she's "healed" giving you the illusion that she's just tougher than she is.

This is the problem, not her. She's a perfectly fine and well thought out concept.

Is her mana the problem? No, her mana is fine as it is (although her damage to mana ratio does need to be changed, I can admit that).

Is her lack of intellect items the problem? No, since we just covered that she does not need to rely on intellect specific items.

So, what is the problem? The problem is you. Yes you, the fat guy in front of his computer with crumbs around his mouth. You see that her health goes down slower and you think "hell, this bitch is a tough one". So you start to use some abilities for some fun and then you notice "holy shit, my mana is low". This isn't due to her lack of a mana pool, it's due to you not realising that you've been healing the entire time! Imagine healing on Moltenious every time the cooldown finishes, for example. You're mana would be gone in a good 4/5 heals. The same thing happens to her, she runs out of mana quickly after taking damage over time.

So you see, Audascious herself isn't the problem, nor the lack of intellect items. The problem is the different healing system that she has in place and the lack of peoples experience with such a system.

[PoNy]

I just gave the titan a hard nice look, I don't think the innate fits but I'll check tomorrow in a pub game.

(I think an innate that allows a nice burst of mana will fit more, like how dusa in dota has mystic snakes that returns some mana and how in Hon the 100% electrician guide says get arcane ring and that his 3rd skill returns 4% max mana per unit hit with it to compliment his mana shield)

[Coaster_Man]

Of course mana shield is the same as heal, and it's a good heal (4 damage per mana = 250 mana for 1000 HP heal (better than molt, and no cd!), but the problem IS that there are no items for her.
Here's an example: If you buy tridents as molt, you get the +20 damage, and another 8 damage because he is str based. Then you get +life from the str bonus.
If you buy the same item as this titan you get the 20 damage and life, but you don't receive the str bonus damage, because audascicous is INT based. Right there plain and simple she has a disadvantage.
Yes she has more int, therefore a larger mana pool = more mana shield time, but then why can't she siege a decent base? :/