Island Defense 3.1.0a - Smygarn (Released)

[Zen1400]

Since arguing getting more lumber is obviously stupid and such, all buildings should give 5 more gold than they currently give to titan because getting more gold is better.

[Coaster_Man]

Since arguing getting more lumber is obviously stupid and such, all buildings should give 5 more gold than they currently give to titan because getting more gold is better.

I understand your sarcasm, but still

[Critikill]

Since arguing getting more lumber is obviously stupid and such, all buildings should give 5 more gold than they currently give to titan because getting more gold is better.

Since I know it's sarcasm, and sarcasm doesn't translate well over the internet, I'm going to say you completely missed the point.

[Zen1400]

The point of arguing over something that actually effects game balance, yeah definitely missed it.

[Cruncher]

Unless I'm completely stupid, last time I checked in Neco's version, Pizzly gave 25 and mag gave 15.

[Coaster_Man]

Unless I'm completely stupid, last time I checked in Neco's version, Pizzly gave 25 and mag gave 15.

Correct.

[theholysmighter]

Morphling with 45g (full warrior upgrades) = badass tank until titan can 3 shot you. (lvl 8-10 depending on items, with no items at all he 2 shots a regular builder at level 6. it then takes another 2 to 2 shot a 400 hp builder, add in his armor, miss chance, and spell block (when in a seed ofc) and he's really a monster.)
He doesn't need magic resist.

Mag change is unesessary. Minion = 45g (if your decent enough to last hit it.) 45g = approximately 33,750 lumber in itself. With the pizzly change he'll have a shit ton more. Now I know, you're not going to spend 45g on lumber alone, but even still it's enough to get you 2-3 upgrades, which makes killing the next minion easier.

you do know that miss wont trigger for spells (nukes)?

[Coaster_Man]

Morphling with 45g (full warrior upgrades) = badass tank until titan can 3 shot you. (lvl 8-10 depending on items, with no items at all he 2 shots a regular builder at level 6. it then takes another 2 to 2 shot a 400 hp builder, add in his armor, miss chance, and spell block (when in a seed ofc) and he's really a monster.)
He doesn't need magic resist.

Mag change is unesessary. Minion = 45g (if your decent enough to last hit it.) 45g = approximately 33,750 lumber in itself. With the pizzly change he'll have a shit ton more. Now I know, you're not going to spend 45g on lumber alone, but even still it's enough to get you 2-3 upgrades, which makes killing the next minion easier.

you do know that miss wont trigger for spells (nukes)?

ofc it does not, and he does not need magic resist
also, he is an offensive builder (warrior/beast) so giving magic resist (defensive) would be wrong

[Smygarn]

I can bring in some numbers to provide a table for Pizzly harvesting.

Lets say our example magnataur spends all the wood on upgrades, but approximately 2000 on walls (8 Upgraded walls). This is typically how a magnataur plays in a public, by spending all the time on golding, and the rest on either lumbering, avoiding titans or helping others avoid titans, or finally assisting a base. For argument sake, lets say the Magnataur Harvests 300 Swings in total through the game up until gold penalty (10 swings a minute).

Up until Gold Penalty:
3.0.6e:
Pizzly: 18K wood
Magnataur: 300 * 25  = 7.5k
Walls = 2000

Lumber provided first 10 minutes = 8.5k - 2000
Lumber provided before gold penalty = 25.5k - 2000

3.1.0a:
Pizzly: 45k
Magnataur: 4.5k
Walls = 2000

Lumber provided first 10 minutes = 16.5k - 2000
Lumber provided before gold penalty = 49.5k - 2000


With a difference of 24 000 Lumber, it sounds like alot doesnt it? Do you think Magnataur deserves a lumber upgrade, if he does not, or if he does but not as strong?

[SuramarXStealth]

Morphling with 45g (full warrior upgrades) = badass tank until titan can 3 shot you. (lvl 8-10 depending on items, with no items at all he 2 shots a regular builder at level 6. it then takes another 2 to 2 shot a 400 hp builder, add in his armor, miss chance, and spell block (when in a seed ofc) and he's really a monster.)
He doesn't need magic resist.

Mag change is unesessary. Minion = 45g (if your decent enough to last hit it.) 45g = approximately 33,750 lumber in itself. With the pizzly change he'll have a shit ton more. Now I know, you're not going to spend 45g on lumber alone, but even still it's enough to get you 2-3 upgrades, which makes killing the next minion easier.

you do know that miss wont trigger for spells (nukes)?

Yeah, but spells get a slight reduction with armor. It already takes 3 to kill a 300 hp builder, 4 for 400, and 5 on a morphling with spell sheild. Who ISNT going to have 800 hp with a little gold in an IH, late game after gp?

[Zen1400]

For mag:
All upgrade costs from ARC alone is 19.5k
RC upgrade cost (not counting merchant stuff, but includes e water) is 5050
Total: 24550

So with the numbers smy got, that means mag never needs to lumber except for wall costs and assuming he got enough gold, he will be able to get every upgrade from pizzly alone. (just about) Obviously that is perfect condition.



Now on morph:

Yeah, but spells get a slight reduction with armor.

Wrong, armor only reduces attack as in MAGIC attack, not spells. Morph always takes the full damage of every nuke.

It already takes 3 to kill a 300 hp builder, 4 for 400, and 5 on a morphling with spell sheild.

Maybe at level 2-4, but last time I checked it took 2 hits for a titan to kill a 300 hp builder and 2 hits (depending on items, and even then a nuke will kill if the 2 hits didnt) to kill a 400 hp builder. Morph gets 400 hp with armor, and assuming he's lucky it takes easily 4+ hits to kill him. He can tank hits but thrown in a single nuke you only need to hit him 2-3 times depending. Throw in another nuke (2 total), and he only requires 1 hit to kill.

Who ISNT going to have 800 hp with a little gold in an IH, late game after gp?

First off a little gold means over 100 in that case. Second of all have you ever seen a mag or demon in an IH? They are much more of a threat than a morph. Both deal more damage & tank better (either magic or straight attacks). They are also better support late game since you aren't being hit, you are being nuked. Both demon and mag have ways of dealing with this, morph only has his 400 hp. If you risk it he can block 1 nuke, which then leaves you stuck for 30 seconds with no health, bad regen, and slower ms.

Also seriously coaster that is the dumbest argument for not getting magic res. All supporters are offensive and defensive. Look at any support builder and you can see they have offensive skills and defensive ones. Fuck demon is suppose to be offensive, yet he has magic resistance.

[sburnett21]

I can bring in some numbers to provide a table for Pizzly harvesting.

Lets say our example magnataur spends all the wood on upgrades, but approximately 2000 on walls (8 Upgraded walls). This is typically how a magnataur plays in a public, by spending all the time on golding, and the rest on either lumbering, avoiding titans or helping others avoid titans, or finally assisting a base. For argument sake, lets say the Magnataur Harvests 300 Swings in total through the game up until gold penalty (10 swings a minute).

Up until Gold Penalty:
3.0.6e:
Pizzly: 18K wood
Magnataur: 300 * 25  = 7.5k
Walls = 2000

Lumber provided first 10 minutes = 8.5k - 2000
Lumber provided before gold penalty = 25.5k - 2000

3.1.0a:
Pizzly: 45k
Magnataur: 4.5k
Walls = 2000

Lumber provided first 10 minutes = 16.5k - 2000
Lumber provided before gold penalty = 49.5k - 2000


With a difference of 24 000 Lumber, it sounds like alot doesnt it? Do you think Magnataur deserves a lumber upgrade, if he does not, or if he does but not as strong?

in 3.1.0 pizzy gets 25 per hit right? what would the lumber be at those times if it was 20 per hit?

[GunTroll]

in 3.1.0 pizzy gets 25 per hit right? what would the lumber be at those times if it was 20 per hit?

45k/25= 1800 hits
1800*20 = 36k

[SuramarXStealth]

For mag:
All upgrade costs from ARC alone is 19.5k
RC upgrade cost (not counting merchant stuff, but includes e water) is 5050
Total: 24550

So with the numbers smy got, that means mag never needs to lumber except for wall costs and assuming he got enough gold, he will be able to get every upgrade from pizzly alone. (just about) Obviously that is perfect condition.



Now on morph:

Yeah, but spells get a slight reduction with armor.

Wrong, armor only reduces attack as in MAGIC attack, not spells. Morph always takes the full damage of every nuke.

It already takes 3 to kill a 300 hp builder, 4 for 400, and 5 on a morphling with spell sheild.

Maybe at level 2-4, but last time I checked it took 2 hits for a titan to kill a 300 hp builder and 2 hits (depending on items, and even then a nuke will kill if the 2 hits didnt) to kill a 400 hp builder. Morph gets 400 hp with armor, and assuming he's lucky it takes easily 4+ hits to kill him. He can tank hits but thrown in a single nuke you only need to hit him 2-3 times depending. Throw in another nuke (2 total), and he only requires 1 hit to kill.

Who ISNT going to have 800 hp with a little gold in an IH, late game after gp?

First off a little gold means over 100 in that case. Second of all have you ever seen a mag or demon in an IH? They are much more of a threat than a morph. Both deal more damage & tank better (either magic or straight attacks). They are also better support late game since you aren't being hit, you are being nuked. Both demon and mag have ways of dealing with this, morph only has his 400 hp. If you risk it he can block 1 nuke, which then leaves you stuck for 30 seconds with no health, bad regen, and slower ms.

Also seriously coaster that is the dumbest argument for not getting magic res. All supporters are offensive and defensive. Look at any support builder and you can see they have offensive skills and defensive ones. Fuck demon is suppose to be offensive, yet he has magic resistance.

Wrong, armor only reduces attack as in MAGIC attack, not spells. Morph always takes the full damage of every nuke.

Alright sorry, I always forget this.

First off a little gold means over 100 in that case.
I was talking like, 45g, then maybe you steal a little more while minion is camping, afk in a base, and gp hits. thats full ups and 2-3 health ups.

Maybe at level 2-4, but last time I checked it took 2 hits for a titan to kill a 300 hp builder and 2 hits (depending on items, and even then a nuke will kill if the 2 hits didnt) to kill a 400 hp builder

It takes 2 hits at lvl 6 to kill a 300 hp builder (no item bonuses) I was talking nukes. It takes 3 to kill a builder, 4 for an hp upgrade, and 5 for a morph with spellshield (assuming used right)

[Smygarn]

Moltenious Nukes
Level 1: 130
Level 2: 155
Level 3: 180

Nukes have been confirmed since way past that the damage is unaffected unless the unit has magic resistance. So if we assume that the builder being nuked is a 300 hit point murloc, gnoll, whatever, it will take three level 1 nukes to kill him. It would however be enough with two level 2 nukes, but the interval would have to be almost instantaneously. with 4hp/sec, you cant delay more than 2 seconds after the first level 2 nuke.

But with Level 3 nukes, there is more room for intervals between the nukes, since we're now up in 60 excess damage which takes 15 seconds to recover.

Morph who begins with 400 hp would take four level 1 nukes within 5 seconds from the first nuke, three level 2 nukes with 12.5 seconds from the first nuke, and then three level 3 nukes with 35 seconds from the first nuke. The seconds I measured show how long the interval can be before the build recovers enough hit points to survive another nuke.

Demons who have 25% magic resistance dont have much more durability than the Morphling does. the difference is this:
Y1 = 130 * 0.25 = 32.5 Less damage
Y2 = 150 * 0.25 =  37.5 Less Damage
Y3 = 180 * 0.25 = 45 Less Damage

So the formula kind of goes like this, if we say 3 nukes on all three levels in the case of Demonologist with 300 hit points, for how many seconds of hp regen required to survive a fourth nuke:
130* "3" - (Y1 * "3") = 390 - 97.5 = 292.5
*137.5/4 = 34.375 Seconds*
150* "3" - (Y2 * "3") = 450 - 107.5 = 342.5
*192.5/4 = 48.125 Seconds*
180* "3" - (Y3 * "3") = 540 - 135 = 405
*285/4 = 71.25 Seconds*

The Table does not exactly explain it, but Morphling can take just as many nukes as Demonologist can early game. Its first after they start stacking up hit point upgrades or manuals that Demonologist is more favored in base defense because of that magical resistance, and the much more convenient walling style.

[Coaster_Man]

Also seriously coaster that is the dumbest argument for not getting magic res. All supporters are offensive and defensive. Look at any support builder and you can see they have offensive skills and defensive ones. Fuck demon is suppose to be offensive, yet he has magic resistance.

Right, so hell lets give faerie magic resist too, since he can be battle faerie. Don't forget sat (stack that hero armor), tauren (which he has in necos 8e) and nature, or his hunter.

Back to morph: If he EVER got magic resist, it should be like evasion where it only works in warrior mode, since beast already has that regen upgrade, making him a TANK.

[SuramarXStealth]

Moltenious Nukes
Level 1: 130
Level 2: 155
Level 3: 180

Nukes have been confirmed since way past that the damage is unaffected unless the unit has magic resistance. So if we assume that the builder being nuked is a 300 hit point murloc, gnoll, whatever, it will take three level 1 nukes to kill him. It would however be enough with two level 2 nukes, but the interval would have to be almost instantaneously. with 4hp/sec, you cant delay more than 2 seconds after the first level 2 nuke.

But with Level 3 nukes, there is more room for intervals between the nukes, since we're now up in 60 excess damage which takes 15 seconds to recover.

Morph who begins with 400 hp would take four level 1 nukes within 5 seconds from the first nuke, three level 2 nukes with 12.5 seconds from the first nuke, and then three level 3 nukes with 35 seconds from the first nuke. The seconds I measured show how long the interval can be before the build recovers enough hit points to survive another nuke.

Demons who have 25% magic resistance dont have much more durability than the Morphling does. the difference is this:
Y1 = 130 * 0.25 = 32.5 Less damage
Y2 = 150 * 0.25 =  37.5 Less Damage
Y3 = 180 * 0.25 = 45 Less Damage

So the formula kind of goes like this, if we say 3 nukes on all three levels in the case of Demonologist with 300 hit points, for how many seconds of hp regen required to survive a fourth nuke:
130* "3" - (Y1 * "3") = 390 - 97.5 = 292.5
*137.5/4 = 34.375 Seconds*
150* "3" - (Y2 * "3") = 450 - 107.5 = 342.5
*192.5/4 = 48.125 Seconds*
180* "3" - (Y3 * "3") = 540 - 135 = 405
*285/4 = 71.25 Seconds*

The Table does not exactly explain it, but Morphling can take just as many nukes as Demonologist can early game. Its first after they start stacking up hit point upgrades or manuals that Demonologist is more favored in base defense because of that magical resistance, and the much more convenient walling style.

Thanks smyg, this more accurately defines what I was getting at without the demonologist part, and with the morph spell shield.

[Smygarn]

The Map has now been properly rehashed, having fixed the problems notified here. The map is now ready to be played.
I thank you all for your patience, and I wish you a good game. =)

(Download link can be found in the OP, replaced link at the bottom)

[SuramarXStealth]

Woot first to download. Hurah for stalking forums!

[ArtFuL]

Woot first to download. Hurah for stalking forums!

I doubt you were the first ~~

[SuramarXStealth]

Woot first to download. Hurah for stalking forums!

I doubt you were the first ~~

First to download the fixed version. I posted, and refreshed and he had it up less than a minute after my post. It was like 30 seconds later. If I was first then damn.

[videogamefreak]

Hey Smygarn I have a Mac and its not compatible with the current version of Island defense. And I've been longing to play to for about 2 years. I was wondering if you are going to change it, so it's Mac compatible?