Here's the Future

[sickle]

Me and Carnerox have been talking a lot.  This is a medium length post, so skip to the end if you're a typical ADHD ID player.  If you actually give a shit about the thinking and what's happened, then read on.

Today I logged onto MSN and was thinking about the History of Island Defense thread that Eji made.  Let's skip down to the part about the guy with the C and X in his name and how the future looks promising about a decent upper left.  Well, as I'm sure many of you probably agree, top left is fucking stupid.  It was like some sort of weird base next to the 'secret shop' everyone knows about, and meanwhile it looks so strange to those of you who played back in Darox's days.  I forget what I had to say about top left, I'm on facebook and MSN and a map making site while I do this.  So yeah, so most of you probably understand the old days like that when you could tome like there's no tomorrow.  Well I've been thinking about that, and my version, the continuations of Darox.

Darox is my role modeling in terms of editing his versions, and has always been my inspiration.  I tried to continue his versions in a way that would be like he was still editing, trying to reflect his style while still creating my own unique editing.  Of course, it didn't matter.  No matter how many triggers I optimized, however many systems I wrote, it wouldn't matter, because wall.up stole Island Defense from me.  He made his version far more popular by using a higher number than 2.  Me and Carnerox discussed this and came to some conclusions.

1. 2.8.6 was more balanced, more original, and cooler.
2. 3.#.# contains useful new features to the game.
3. We both like editing.

So, we decided to do something very special.  Make the two versions into one.  We will be taking things from Island Defense 3, and adding them to 2.8.6.  In other words, it's like starting over so that history doesn't repeat itself.  We're actually going to use the 2.8.6 map and just edit that instead of 3.0.7.  There's some very big advantages to this.
     

• Mac compatibility.
• More balanced.
• We can plan everything out.
• TAVERNS FOR PICKING UNITS!
  
  So what happens from here?  Carnerox will be releasing 3.0.7b, then the next version will be 3.1.0, a project between the both of us.  We are both co-editors.  There is no main editor, neither of us has final decision.  We need to agree on something together, or one of us has to decide to give in.  That way if one of us has a god awful idea, the other can explain it to the other.  This should provide better editing in the future.  If panda had someone to talk to
  
  Before we release this dream-team made version, we need to accomplish these goals.
       
• Set up an actual Beta-Testing team.
• Make the map?
• Balance, balance, balance.

So, that's what's happening.  Any questions, comments, or rebuttals?

[Alias]

Prepare to have you two arguing hard core.

Other than "good luck!", that's all I have to say.

[Eji1700]

Good to hear, and honestly about time.  However since i grill the hell out of everyone my first thoughts in order of importance:
0.Thank  fucking god mac compatibility.
1.What stays and what goes?
2.That which stays will it be reworked(should panda, foss, etc make the cut)
3.Can you work together? I mean seriously.  It's hard.  People piss each other off over dumber shit.
4.IF you can can you organize beta testing?  Again hard.  I'll do it when i can and happen be on, but if you want serious testing you might want to..like..update a forum topic to get people organized and aware when a game is going.
5.What's your goal?  Fun, competitive, and how much of each?  Balance is a bitch and it's hard to pinpoint any version that was great, and again BALANCE IS A BITCH.  You've got your own ideas, the high level player ideas, the middle level players ideas, and the low level player ideas and All of them can be right or wrong and finding the correct answer is a bitch.
6.Rd standard?
7.Moar builders?
8.Moar titans?
9.I can haz critter!112121-1-102102-12301258250-23812490210
10.Who's on top?
11.Who's on first.
12.What about SC2?
13. What do you think needs changing on the stuff that stays? (Builders/titans you plan on balancing/remaking/tweaking.  HINT OGRE.)
14. Seriously good luck.

[Coaster_Man]

Sounds cool.  
Honestly though, I like the boats to pick your builder  

[PaperClip]

Don't trust anyone from IDA

That is all, good luck

[carnerox]

Papercunt, I disbanded it.

[MuDDy_PaNDa]

First
if ever there is a beta team i would love to be in it and help

Second
i did think exactly about the same idea about 2 months ago and told myself that it was dumb because you guys would never agree and there would be just more RQ'S
if yiu guys can pull this off island defense will live, if not it dies

[sickle]

0.Thank  fucking god mac compatibility.
Most important think imo, it's what sparked the idea of working together.

1.What stays and what goes?
I can't answer that in one post.  The builders added after Darox are staying, but being reworked and balanced further.  3.1.0 is focusing a lot on getting Island Defense 3 balanced.  Thank god the terrain is going.  Tomes are staying, but with their long cooldown like in 2.8.6e.  A lot of small gameplay changes like -cam will be added.

2.That which stays will it be reworked(should panda, foss, etc make the cut)


3.Can you work together? I mean seriously.  It's hard.  People piss each other off over dumber shit.
We respect each other, and have worked together in the past, trading JASS snippets between versions.

>4.IF you can can you organize beta testing?  Again hard.  I'll do it when i can and happen be on, but if you want serious testing you might want to..like..update a forum topic to get people organized and aware when a game is going.
We have a super-secret-beta-testing-forum that only members of the Beta Testing group can see.

5.What's your goal?  Fun, competitive, and how much of each?  Balance is a bitch and it's hard to pinpoint any version that was great, and again BALANCE IS A BITCH.  You've got your own ideas, the high level player ideas, the middle level players ideas, and the low level player ideas and All of them can be right or wrong and finding the correct answer is a bitch.
My personal goal is to add content but keep the current competitivity.  After wall.up started editing, any pub with a decent titan ended with a titan victory, because titan was buffed so much (maybe because he sucked as titan...) So we want to increase the titans odds to make it a bit more competitive.  It's all about competition.  More about this further on.

6.Rd standard?
hell no.  when IDG does IH and uses -rd that's fine, but the ADHD-butter-fly-attention-span-pubbies need AP.

7.Moar builders?
Panda, Arachnid, Puppet, and Pirate will be at the shops but costing 3 gold.  Panda will be moved into the direction of a normal baser but keeping some of his elements, he'll resemble the current panda mixed with murloc and faerie.  Arachnid carnerox wants to fix, that's his personal project, I got no fucking idea what to do with it.  Puppet just needs bug fixing, his concept is golden.  Pirate I don't know about, I want to keep the stats and abilities but change the genre.

8.Moar titans?
Foss and Neth will be the same as the builders, Coming Soon/3 gold.  Carnerox is in charge of doing what he wants to titans.

9.I can haz critter!112121-1-102102-12301258250-23812490210
No additional critters are being added in 3.1.0.

10.Who's on top?
I am.

11.Who's on first.
Costello.

12.What about SC2?
We support Anubis and will give him any information he needs from the map to work on his.

13. What do you think needs changing on the stuff that stays? (Builders/titans you plan on balancing/remaking/tweaking.  HINT OGRE.)
I discussed some of it above.  There's not much more to say, other than the competitiveness.  Island Defense is too much of an AFK game.  I'm trying to think of ways to change that.  Between the start of the game and the gold timer, you should always have something to do.

[PaperClip]

I'd love to help and beta test but fucking school

I have holiday in about two weeks if it's still in testing by then

Also by doing nothing I have done more than beta testers from IDA
The more you know 

[RuNm]

7.Moar builders?
Panda, Arachnid, Puppet, and Pirate will be at the shops but costing 3 gold.  Panda will be moved into the direction of a normal baser but keeping some of his elements, he'll resemble the current panda mixed with murloc and faerie.  Arachnid carnerox wants to fix, that's his personal project, I got no fucking idea what to do with it.  Puppet just needs bug fixing, his concept is golden.  Pirate I don't know about, I want to keep the stats and abilities but change the genre.

8.Moar titans?
Foss and Neth will be the same as the builders, Coming Soon/3 gold.  Carnerox is in charge of doing what he wants to titans.

So will there be another command to give people enough gold to get these builders/Titans? Sort of like the abused -sat ffa command? 

Other than that, I think this is an excellent idea and can't wait to see the finished product.  Can you estimate about as to how long till you guys might be able to release? I don't mean an exact date but maybe an estimate? 

[MuDDy_PaNDa]

7.Moar builders?
Panda, Arachnid, Puppet, and Pirate will be at the shops but costing 3 gold.  Panda will be moved into the direction of a normal baser but keeping some of his elements, he'll resemble the current panda mixed with murloc and faerie.  Arachnid carnerox wants to fix, that's his personal project, I got no fucking idea what to do with it.  Puppet just needs bug fixing, his concept is golden.  Pirate I don't know about, I want to keep the stats and abilities but change the genre.

8.Moar titans?
Foss and Neth will be the same as the builders, Coming Soon/3 gold.  Carnerox is in charge of doing what he wants to titans.

So will there be another command to give people enough gold to get these builders/Titans? Sort of like the abused -sat ffa command? 

Other than that, I think this is an excellent idea and can't wait to see the finished product.  Can you estimate about as to how long till you guys might be able to release? I don't mean an exact date but maybe an estimate? 

No its a preview of the features that will be there in the future

[sickle]

Yeah, you can't get 3 gold.  You need 2G for the satyr, 3 for coming soon builders, 1 for a normal one.

[RuNm]

OH, ok thank you Can't wait to try their new re-balanced forms out when the new map cmes out

[Alias]

So you're keeping satyr as a "WOMG 2G MUST BE UBER1337!" builder?

[JewEater]

Sickle, can i test it then?

[Bremetar]

hooray!

13. What do you think needs changing on the stuff that stays? (Builders/titans you plan on balancing/remaking/tweaking.  HINT OGRE.)
I discussed some of it above.  There's not much more to say, other than the competitiveness.  Island Defense is too much of an AFK game.  I'm trying to think of ways to change that.  Between the start of the game and the gold timer, you should always have something to do.

it also depends on how people play the game though.  if say, someone were to early base then they could end up sitting there for the entire game  .  i don't see how you'd change that though. 

[sickle]

The goal isn't to make it so that you need to be constantly doing things.  I want to make it so that if you excersive micro and do a lot of things you get an advantage, but you can't go forever.  Long time map makers consider two things, the snowball effect and the Z-Factor I think someone wrote a tutorial about them on Thehelper.  Anyways, the Z-Factor pretty much says that, for example, if the builders all base early, the titan can get no feed, and when he can't break their bases the bases will keep getting better and the titan will keep getting weaker in proportion.  ID is pretty good with this, because builders and titans are equal in the beginning, then they base and the builders have the advantage, then after several sieges the Titan gets stronger and eventually breaks the base to win, unless he messes up.  So, the Z-Factor is not a problem.  However, if I add in more micro-ing for builders, it may enforce the Z-factor so that builders get too strong early game and then the titan can not get more powerful.

It's a big struggle in balancing.

[killadev]

Don't trust anyone from IDA

That is all, good luck

IDA is dead moron, and  you cant judge a group of people from a clan on a beta testing team.

Edit: Looking forward to this update, carn was talking to me about it and i like the idea. 3.0.6 builders pretty much transferred over to a more balanced version, with the old terrain back. I hope you let me beta test   

[carnerox]

It's a trap. And I didn't say just transferred. -_-

[GunTroll]

Darox is my role modeling in terms of editing his versions, and has always been my inspiration.  I tried to continue his versions in a way that would be like he was still editing, trying to reflect his style while still creating my own unique editing.  Of course, it didn't matter.  No matter how many triggers I optimized, however many systems I wrote, it wouldn't matter, because wall.up stole Island Defense from me.  He made his version far more popular by using a higher number than 2.  Me and Carnerox discussed this and came to some conclusions.

dont get me wrong but "all" you did was optimizing code, thats something no one cares about. decreased load time is nice, but i would prefer content over load time. Unless i missed something major there is no lagg caused by some code and im not sure how replacing polled waits affects the game at all. i also haven't seen anything about a new system other then timerultils. It should be clear to anyone that you wont get your version hosted unless you add more content. ( i did not count drainie changes as content)

Its very easy to blame everything on pandamime, who actually saved ID at some point. If it is so easy to make a version more popular, why dont you increase your current number by 2?
my conclusion is that you like talking about work.

when i wrote "dont get me wrong " i wanted to make my post sound positive, as you can see it did not work.

[sickle]

Obviously you misunderstand the meaning of 'optimization' in this context.  I increased the speed of things, made things more efficient, and I'm in the process of rewriting most of the map's code.  I'm working on creating builders with an interface and UID_ prefixed globals and all sorts of other things. 

For systems, I have been using Event to execute more codes and I'm rewriting Titan Minions with AIDS to be more efficient and to change how mini-minis work.  And his was able to use the number to the advantage because every knew there weren't new things coming out, and he changed to 3 to make it clear his was different.  If someone sees 2.x.x they automatically think 2 < 3 and don't play my version.  So please, try to use comm sense.  Also, I haven't added new content because there's been A) No Suggestions and B) I have nothing to add.  2.8.6d/e is fine with content.  If you don't like it, play 3.0.x.

[Jumby]

Titan Minions with AIDS

[Zen1400]

Forgot where its said, but minions should stay summoned from corpses. They aren't hard to get at all really, and in large groups they can easily take down builders along with other important buildings.

[sickle]

But there are only 10 non-flying creeps to kill, the rest must be from workers.  And late game, when all the feed is inside bases, you can't summon more than 10 mini-minis (assuming non of yours have died)

[Zen1400]

Yes and 10 is more than enough to kill a builder easily, and plenty of time people seed leaving more than enough workers left.